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Different forming plastics [MOVED]

 
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jzawacki
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PostPosted: Wed Jan 17, 2007 12:15 pm    Post subject: Different forming plastics [MOVED] Reply with quote

Well, This is off topic, but this seems to be the closest post I can find to the information I am hoping to get. Feel free to break this off into a new post if needed.

Now, to take it more off topic, it isn't really geared toward costuming.. I'm hoping to know general information for different types of plastic as well as thickness. The research I have done, almost everyone uses HIPS/HIS in around .080 for uniforms, and PETG in the same thickness for arcade parts, etc.

But, I do see other posts about car parts, tool parts, etc, and I'm sure the uses for a vacuum former are limitless. So, how would someone go about deciding what plastic to use, and what thickness? What should my initial plastics order look like? Should I purcahse a bunch of 24x24 sheets of different plastics and thicknesses? It just seems like it would be a waste, but how can someone tell without actually using it?

Oh.. and I just thought of one more question, if I took a .020 garage sale sign from the mentioned major retail store, and stacked 4 of them together, can I expect that to be close to what a .080 would be? And would that be a decent way to decide how think I want my plastic to be?
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jegner
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 8:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Moved from another thread, that jzawacki started, I thought this deserved it's own place here:

This is what jzawacki said:

Quote:
Well, This is off topic, but this seems to be the closest post I can find to the information I am hoping to get. Feel free to break this off into a new post if needed.

Now, to take it more off topic, it isn't really geared toward costuming.. I'm hoping to know general information for different types of plastic as well as thickness. The research I have done, almost everyone uses HIPS/HIS in around .080 for uniforms, and PETG in the same thickness for arcade parts, etc.

But, I do see other posts about car parts, tool parts, etc, and I'm sure the uses for a vacuum former are limitless. So, how would someone go about deciding what plastic to use, and what thickness? What should my initial plastics order look like? Should I purcahse a bunch of 24x24 sheets of different plastics and thicknesses? It just seems like it would be a waste, but how can someone tell without actually using it?

Oh.. and I just thought of one more question, if I took a .020 garage sale sign from the mentioned major retail store, and stacked 4 of them together, can I expect that to be close to what a .080 would be? And would that be a decent way to decide how think I want my plastic to be?


For me, I guessed, with .060 and ordered a full sheet, trimmed it down to 24x24 inches myself. White High Impact Polystyrene is the easiest and most common material to vacuum form. I don't suppose there are any rules, but for me, if the draw is deep, you will want a thicker material. It's a guess on sheet thickness depending on what detail you want to maintain. The thinner the material, the more detail.

I've pulled .040 and that stuff drawn on molds is about like a halloween mask. .093 is great for helmet domes etc. due to the depth of the molds. .125 Is too thick for my needs.

The thicker the plastic, the more expensive, so for your first outing, get some .060 or .080, have the supplier trim to "24 inches by 24 inches 'nominal'." That is supplier speak so they are not trimming for precision, and won't charge you extra.

As for clear materials, why not try some hardware store acrylic. Even the hobby stores stock pretty thin acrylic in sizes large enough for your holding frames.

ABS needs to be pre dried before forming, and you really need a hi-vac or two-stage system to pull it well. Also, ABS has one side textured.
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jzawacki
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:39 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thank you, that is very usefull information. What about strength though? I mean, for example, with head light lenses on a car. What thickness would you get so that the first rock that kicks up doesn't shatter it? Or, with a bezzel (sp) for a car stereo, it needs to be teenager "friendly".

Or, like the comparison between a "casper" mask (super thin plastic that will tear if you sneeze while wearing it) and a "jason" hockey mask (which can be thrown around freely without damage)..

An yet another direction, what thickness would you use if you wanted to make a medieval armor chest plate strong enough to take regular hits from a wooden sword?

Most of these don't require very much detail, but will need to handle abuse. Right now I'm thinking of ordering the .080 HIPS and PETG to start and going from there. I already know ABS is more than I can handle just because of the cool down time. Maybe in the future when I actually have a working former I will research the 2 stage stuff and go to the next level, but for now I'm just planning on an over/under with a 5HP shop vac.

Actually, now that I think of it, a resource page would be nice (or if there is already one, please point me to it) with a list of plastic type, and thickness, and then examples of what it was used for.
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jegner
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PostPosted: Thu Jan 18, 2007 9:48 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

.093 PETG is very strong stuff, much less brittle than acrylic, but does require sawing and cutting to trim out, and if hit hard enough will crack. I have lense covers for a 1984 SVO that were made of this stuff in about .093. Never did crack. BTW, soda bottles, are made from very thin PETG, IIRC and we all know how hard these things are to break.

PETG forms much like ABS, and for soft detailed items, it will be fine with a shop-vac powered rig. For details, however, you will want a stronger vacuum, and thinner material. It takes longer to cool than HIPS.

For the battle armor, HIPS will be more on the brittle side, so ABS would be better, in .125, but ABS has to be custom orders smooth on both sides. Most of the 501st FX armor is ABS, and it holds up well under a lot of use. ABS is used in coolers, and athletic gear, so thats what I would use.

Jim
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in2plastic



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PostPosted: Fri Mar 16, 2007 10:10 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

There are some fairly common alloys being offered in extruded sheet which you might consider. GE makes a GPX line which is an ABS/PC blend "alloy" very durable, excellent surface asthetics.

Delving into an entirely new world would be some of the TPO's, and TPR's which are olefin based products. ie. Polyethylene, polyproprylene etc.

Historically these have been very difficult products to work with due to material shinkage, instability and orientation issues.

Again new technology at the molecular level has created hybrids which addressed such issues. This stuff would be absolutely perfect for your applications. You've undoubtably seen the TV commercials where the grocery cart hits the car body and doesnt even leave a mark - thats the ticket. Just let me know if interested, I'll try my best to help.
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jzawacki
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PostPosted: Sun Mar 18, 2007 4:32 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

What exactly would I look for to purchase these new blends you are talking about? The Polyethylene, polyproprylene, etc. aren't listed a vacuum forming friendly. Have you worked with them? If so, what was your experience like?
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jegner
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 7:49 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Professional Plastics has some of these plastics, but I'm not sure of the availability for vac forming. Paul aka ANH trooper if I recall, did some test with polypropolene with limited success. Cost is also a factor.

Jim
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drcrash
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PostPosted: Mon Mar 19, 2007 11:20 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jzawacki wrote:
What exactly would I look for to purchase these new blends you are talking about? The Polyethylene, polyproprylene, etc. aren't listed a vacuum forming friendly. Have you worked with them? If so, what was your experience like?


I'd be interested in more specifics, too.

One of my concerns would be whether some of these plastics require more precise heating than the traditional "easy" vacuum forming plastics. If there are good blends that overcome those difficulties, that's great... but which ones have which properties?

I'd be interested in vacuum forming polyethylene or polypropylene to make molds. (For casting gypsum cements, concrete, resins, and papier mache-like stuff.) My understanding is that it's common to make fairly low-relief molds for things like decorative concrete stepping stones from vacuum formed polypropylene, but I haven't gotten around to it yet. (It also seems to be common to vacuum form molds for casting candles, soaps, and candies.)

I'm also interested in vacuum forming sheet foams, like thin extruded polystyrene and (if I could find it retail) extruded polypropylene, or polystyrene blends like Elapor or R-Mer. (None of which I know where to buy in sheet form.) EVA foam is very easy to vacuum form, and I've done that, but I'm looking for something more rigid, but still easy enough to work with.

Something stiffer than EVA but tougher than styrofoam would have a lot of uses.

A lot of radio control planes these days are made out of expanded polypropylene, because it's stiff enough and light enough, but flexes instead of breaking or crushing when you crash. (I have a couple of little ones, and I love them.) Unfortunately, they're made out of expanded bead foam, which doesn't have a fine-grained surface and doesn't seem to be good for vacuum forming---the beads separate when you heat it up too much, and it falls apart. (Most of the commercial EPP planes are pressure molded from expanding beads, and most of the homemade ones are made by cutting, bending, and gluing sheets of EPP bead foam, not by thermoforming.) There is such a thing as extruded (fine-grained, not beads) polypropylene, which is supposed to be "easily thermoformable" in at least an industrial sense, but it doesn't seem to be common.

I imagine that something like that would have a lot of cool costuming and prop uses, too.
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jzawacki
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PostPosted: Tue Mar 20, 2007 7:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jegner wrote:
Cost is also a factor.


Cost is only a factor if the commercial equal is cheaper than doing it yourself (including time and materials).

But, if the part you are replacing is a $400 item.. $60 for the plastic isn't that bad.
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mr2monster
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 3:55 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

jzawacki wrote:
jegner wrote:
Cost is also a factor.


Cost is only a factor if the commercial equal is cheaper than doing it yourself (including time and materials).

But, if the part you are replacing is a $400 item.. $60 for the plastic isn't that bad.


Unless it takes you 6 pulls to get it right Wink


Sorry to drag up an old thread, but is ALL ABS one side textured? and is it the same texture you'd find on the plastic parts of a car interior? professional plastics calls it "hair cell" Is that what I want to use for a car interior product that I'm designing?
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jegner
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 5:16 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

ABS usually has one side smooth, the other has the haircel texture. Kydex also has this texture, and is a common plastic found on airplanes, etc. You can order ABS smooth on both sides, and that is what most trooper armor is made from.

What sort of car interior parts are you making?

Jim
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mr2monster
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PostPosted: Fri Jun 15, 2007 8:01 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Trying to make a replacement to the top of my steering column... with a few modifications Wink I'd spill my idea, but this one's going to be a money maker for me. I'll post pictures once i get done with it though.
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