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Voltage question.

 
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DarthVader1
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Joined: 04 Nov 2007
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Location: Phenix City, AL

PostPosted: Sun Sep 07, 2008 5:07 pm    Post subject: Voltage question. Reply with quote

Hi guys. I'ts being a while since I've posted something here, but I've being really busy with real-life stuff, being sick, etc.

I am really close to start my vacuuforming machine pretty soon, since one of the reasons I couldn't finish my SECRET-SECRET project was due that my friend got hit by a tornado a few months ago, and his shop suffered some damage, which includes his vacuuforming machine.

Anyway, I am planning to set my vac machine in my shed, but the shed itself lacks of electricity, which I am working on it. The power will come through an underground wiring coming from the pool filter, which is just about 25 meters away from the shed. My plan is to set up the shed with electricity coming from the pool, using a separate fuse box, and separate switch from the pool's filter switchbox, that way if something happens to the shed, the power will be out completely, and no accidents.

Now, the question that came to me when I asked a friend of mine.....what kind of setup should I use.......110v or 220v ??? My friend told me that I could make it 220v, with 110v hookups inside the shed....how do that works? I remember someone here (Tubachris?, crazyfool?) who made a setup using two different breakers or something like that, also using a separate fusebox. All I want is a definite setup that doesn't fry anything inside my shed, or blow any fuses from the house. All I need is for the oven, and the SHOPVAC, and probably for the heat gun (if that's enough power distribution/consumption).....I dunno. Shocked

Any ideas or solution to my dillema, is welcome to post here.

(I know.... there is a STICKY about 110/220 calculator, but I'm not an electrician). Confused
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mnttech
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Joined: 04 Jul 2007
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Location: Aurora Colorado

PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 12:37 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

You can provide 220 (wires of hot, hot, neutral, and maybe ground) from a main CB box to an out building, and then just use one hot and the neutral for 110.

Quote:
but I'm not an electrician

Since you are asking this type of question, I would highly recommend a getting a pro to provide you the power. That 25 meters (~75 feet) makes for a large voltage drop, causing all kinds of new problems.
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crashmann
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Joined: 27 Sep 2005
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 08, 2008 9:45 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

There's a few people that one needs to know and make friends with through life:
Doctor
Lawyer
Computer nerd
Auto mechanic (my friend just changed out three impossible to reach spark plugs tonight!)
Plumber
Electrician

You are not an electrician, and neither am I. Connecting to household electrical supply is not something to go cheap with, or learn on the fly. Definitely get a real electrician to look at what you are trying to do and tell you if it is feasible. Most will offer a free survey and estimate.

If you tap into the pool electrical supply, then that will be the maximum capacity for your shed (minus the draw for the pool pump, which could be significant). Check the electrical panel for the pool to find out what kind of capacity it has. You could shut off the pump when working in the shed, then remember to turn it back on when you're done (if you forget, you'll have a green pool!)

I would recommend installing a circuit breaker box with 220 volt circuit dedicated for your oven. It will need a special outlet like your clothes dryer or kitchen oven/stove. Or, you could wire the oven to run off two 110 volt outlets. You'll need additional 110 volt breakers and outlets for the vacuum pump, shop vac, and other various tools.


Good luck!

Charlie
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DarthVader1
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Joined: 04 Nov 2007
Posts: 193
Location: Phenix City, AL

PostPosted: Fri Sep 12, 2008 5:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

crashmann wrote:
There's a few people that one needs to know and make friends with through life:
Doctor
Lawyer
Computer nerd
Auto mechanic (my friend just changed out three impossible to reach spark plugs tonight!)
Plumber
Electrician


That's right. The Computer Nerd: I used to have one really reliable (and cheap), but after moving throughout my military career, I've lost contact with him. Sad Electrician: (or at least one who knows a little about everything, to include construction, specially), I have one; About the rest you''ve mentioned....not so much, though. Confused

Thanks for the good info CRASHMANN! Very Happy I will check on that.
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Culvan
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 17, 2008 8:47 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'll echo what everyone else has said and recommend that you consult an electrician on this. You've got a lot of challenging variables to deal with. The distance you are going and the current draw you are likely to use makes this tricky. Hopefully the following information will be helpful when they ask what you want.

If you are planning a thurston james style oven then you are probably looking at 20-30 amps of current (if you are using single phase wiring) just for the oven. Heat gun will add another 10 amps and the vacuum (i.e. shopvac) can be anywhere from 3 to 30 amps, we'll just estimate 15 for this calculation. You could easilly be looking at 50 amps to run all of it at once. There's a good chance that's 1/2 to 1/3 of what your house gets total. I suspect that the circuit for your pool filter is not rated for that kind of load. You could try to shuffle it around to make sure that you turn the oven off before you turn the heat gun on, but I think you'll really piss yourself off the first time you lose a pull because you accidentally tripped the breaker.

All the single phase breakers in my house are 15-20 amps. My drier has a 30 amp two phase (220v) breaker and that's what I use for my oven. The two phase 30 amp breaker will allow 30 amps on each phase. I think that's the sort of power you will need to run everything you are looking for. I'm not sure what sort of options the electrician will offer you, but getting 2 breakers rated at 30 amps each would probably be what you are looking for.

Andy
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CrazyFool
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Joined: 07 May 2008
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PostPosted: Thu Sep 18, 2008 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

My vacuum forming machine runs on 110v. It has two ovens. Each oven is supplied by a separate 20 amp breaker in the electrical panel. This setup has worked extremely well for me, pumping out so much heat that it will totally destroy a sheet of 1/8" thick acrylic plastic if left near the ovens too long. In my opinion there is no compelling reason to mess with 220v if you don't have to. The only advantage I can see is that your ovens will get hotter faster. Yes, a 220v fed oven will get hotter than a 110v oven, but 110v should get your ovens PLENTY hot if run off of a 20 amp breaker, connected to a 20 amp outlet, connected to a 20 amp extension cord, connected to a 20 amp on/off switch on your oven. If the breakers and/or other items are only 15 amps then your oven may not get as hot as you would like.

Good luck buddy.

CF
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Culvan
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Location: Kansas City, MO

PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrazyFool wrote:
In my opinion there is no compelling reason to mess with 220v if you don't have to.
CF


Perhaps I wasn't clear in my analysis. I hope I'm not adding more confusion than clarification. I was trying to emphasize the power requirements not the voltage requirements. Specifically for the purposes of determining the breakers an electrician would need to install. (I doubt that the pool filter's breaker can provide enough power.) Based on what he's described I think he'll need either:

Two 30 amp breakers at 110V.
or
One 30 amp breaker at 220v.

I would tend to agree that it's easier to stick with the 110V. It will make it much easier to run the vacuum heat gun and most other tools he's using. I don't know what standard breaker sizes are. It's possible that he could have one 50 to 60 amp breaker put in, I'm not sure. The electrician can help answer those questions.

As a side note, I believe that Jim uses a generator to run his vacuum forming machine. That might be something to consider as well.

Andy
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ANH trooper
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 6:04 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I have my machine located in my loft which is converted into my work place/studio. I have a couple of sockets up there wired up from the upstairs circuit that hardly gets used. I put in a junction box and wired the sockets correctly, and I have my radio, heat gun, vacuum pump and heater all plugged in and running together at the same time and have never tripped the breaker.

We have 220V here in the UK and I have my oven wired in two legs rather than four, and everything works perfectly. I even have my battery charger plugged in too for my drill sometimes. The main switch on the breaker reads 80A and it has four smaller switches for the sockets and lighting, but no markings on them so I don't know the actual rating for the power.
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CrazyFool
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PostPosted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 7:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

A shocking story for your enjoyment...

Back around 1992 I was an electrician's apprentice in California. My supervisor was taking a small cover off of a fantastically huge (we're talking 40 to 50 ft long) power panel at a Hewlett Packard building. I was standing on a ladder above my supervisor looking down at him when... "BOOM!!!" Blinding white light. Supervisor thrown 10 feet across the room (knocking one CrazyFool's ladder out from under him). And one CF hanging from an electrical pipe some 15 feet in the air in total darkness.

$300,000 later (in lost labor and unsaved computer files at Hewlett Packard)...

The excuse was that whoever attached the small cover before my supervisor touched it had not secured the cover properly and it was just waiting to fall into the power panel. The only thing that saved the supervisor from being blinded for life was the fact that he had such poor vision his eyeglasses were as thick as his index finger. So... was it really a poorly secured cover, or poor eyesight that caused that caused the accident? I guess we'll never know.

CF
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cod
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Joined: 05 Nov 2006
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PostPosted: Mon Sep 22, 2008 6:38 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrazyFool wrote:
A shocking story for your enjoyment...
So... was it really a poorly secured cover, or poor eyesight that caused that caused the accident? I guess we'll never know.

CF



yeeesh.

my horror story from last week: my shop partner informs me that the lights have been flickering lately. One day he goes to check the panel and sees electricity ARC-ING ON THE PANEL! We bring in an electrical and it turns out that whomever put the wiring together 30+ yrs ago didn't really tighten down one of the legs properly- it had finally oxidized so much that it wasn't getting a good connect anymore and causing the power flicker! I need some insurance!
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Mattax
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PostPosted: Sun Oct 05, 2008 4:54 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

CrazyFool wrote:
A shocking story for your enjoyment...

Back around 1992 I was an electrician's apprentice in California. My supervisor was taking a small cover off of a fantastically huge (we're talking 40 to 50 ft long) power panel at a Hewlett Packard building. I was standing on a ladder above my supervisor looking down at him when... "BOOM!!!" Blinding white light. Supervisor thrown 10 feet across the room (knocking one CrazyFool's ladder out from under him). And one CF hanging from an electrical pipe some 15 feet in the air in total darkness.

$300,000 later (in lost labor and unsaved computer files at Hewlett Packard)...

The excuse was that whoever attached the small cover before my supervisor touched it had not secured the cover properly and it was just waiting to fall into the power panel. The only thing that saved the supervisor from being blinded for life was the fact that he had such poor vision his eyeglasses were as thick as his index finger. So... was it really a poorly secured cover, or poor eyesight that caused that caused the accident? I guess we'll never know.

CF


That's called Arc Flash. Very lucky the arc did not reach out and touch you or your supervisor. The blinding light would have been temporary in any case.

This happened at another one of our distribution centers and the mechanic was temporarily blinded. He regained his vision within 30 minutes and was fully recovered a few hours later. The pull out panel in the main power supply panel fell off the track and down at an angle into the power bar. Instant boom! Lightning arcs actually went up the entire 35 foot wall seeking ground. It threw the mechanic against the fence ten feet away.

For myself, I ran a dedicated 100 amp panel out to my shed. I ran service wire from the house and buried it in Electrical grade PVC from the house to the shed. Inside the panel I have seperate circuits for the different electrical outlets, lighting, air conditioning, exhaust fan and one for the 110 for the vac table control circuits and another 220 for the oven.
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inventer
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 1:48 am    Post subject: I've tripped breakers Reply with quote

Electric is tricky, I've already tripped my 110 and 220 already. At the beginning when I turned on my heat gun while expermenting with my pulls, it tripped my breakers, did'nt realize how much a heat gun pulled, just make sure you spread out your load properly, you don't want to over load things, thats bad, good luck and be very carefull, Tony
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Mattax
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 06, 2008 2:22 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Anything with an electric coil for heat - for example a heat gun, hair dryer, electric furnace, electric water heater - a motor - for example a refrigerator, a vacuum pump, vacuum cleaner, exhaust fan, blower fan - and electronic appliances - for example TV, Stereo Receiver and Computer - will be your biggest draws of electric current in your home or workshop.

Obviously, the ratings on some appliances will help to determine the current draw, but others that only give you voltage, you will require either a working knowledge of Ohm's Law or have a handy Amp probe to test the line. Of course, the faster the motor turns, the higher you turn up the heat or the cold or the volume, the more amperage will be drawn.

Here is a link to help you determine the amps, resistance and voltage. you need to know two of the three to get the third.

Ohm's Law Calculator:
http://www.the12volt.com/ohm/page2.asp

And the Ohm's Law Chart:
http://www.radioremembered.org/ohmslaw.htm
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