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jegner
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 17, 2008 9:40 pm    Post subject: Post election observations and 2nd Amendment buying habits Reply with quote

Well, not to get political, but the fall out from the recent election has driven many folks to wondering if they should spring for that handgun, and AR15 or semi-auto AK rifle before the new administration decides they are too scary for the public good, and bans them... again. I'm not going to debate the virtues pro or con banning guns here, but I did want to post some musing over some recent observations.

While the rest of the global economy is circling the drain, the sporting goods sales of ammo and guns are up. Way up.

Prices on AR15's have risen. Not skyrocketing but it is a seller's market, and they can pretty much ask what they want for one. Last Summer a new Colt AR15 would sell, on the low end for less than $900 at a gun show. Thats $1200 easy now. The cheaper makers, like Bushmaster, or Rock River are not that much less. The good news is that High Standard from Houston makes a decent mil-spec version, and they can still be had for around $800. Less if you know where to look. Trying to build up one from a receiver is still the cheapest option, but good luck finding the parts. Everyone is selling them as finished guns now.

Ammo. "Everybody wants some! I want some too!" Sorry, my Van Halen is showing, but the point is, most of the vendors are overwhelmed. AIM Surplus, a major player in all this has started only taking ammo order over the phone in the most popular calibers! Their supplies are that low. Many of the big retailers are charging twice what they were a year ago per box of 'boo-lets'. Example, Gander MTN. had Wolf HP 7.62x39mm last year for $4.50 a box. Thats $9 now.

Reloading that was once just a niche part of the shooting sports is now front and center, as many folks are speculating that soon... the only way to get ammo is to roll your own. But the components are drying up, as reloaders are buying like there's no tomorrow.

Magazines. Not the paper kind you get at news stands, but the metal and plastic type that hold ammo, have shot up considerably. That Glock 17, factory magazine that was just $20 for any online vendor is pushing $30 now. Better stock up while you still can seems to be the going motto.

Handguns. The auto-loaders are flying off the shelves. At a recent trip to Academy, the handgun rack looked like a Soviet supermarket shelf.

Something to think about folks. Right or wrong. Again, not being political here, but just making some observations. It would be interesting to see what is going on in other parts of the country.
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Stomper
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 10:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just bought 500 rounds of (Russian made) Wolf 55-gr. FMJ .223 (MILSPEC) for $150 at Sportsman's Guide. They have even cheaper stuff of Eastern European manufacture, but they are Berdan primed, and the customer reviews say it burns a bit dirty, but if it's for "home defense" it wouldn't be an issue.

There is a HUGE shortage of M-14 magazines, and of course suppliers are capitalizing on that, but I found a source for 20-rnd. M-14 magazines for $19-ea, so I bought one to see what it looks like, with shipping it was $25. They are made in Taiwan on U.S. machine-tools that were sold off when the M-14 was phased out as the main battle rifle of the U.S. The magazines are blued instead of the phosphate coating, but who cares as long as they hold and & feed the rounds properly!!

I have a .308 Galil and trying to find magazines for that is next to impossible unless you want to pay $100-$200 apiece when you do find them!! I read that you can convert M-14 Magazines to work with a .308 Galil with a bit of machining prowess on the front and rear latches, and I just so happen to (cough, cough) have those kinds of skills... Wink I'll buy 4 more if this works out like I hope it does, giving me a total of 6) 20-rnd magazines of .308 for the Galil... that should be plenty... LOL!

They also have "Asian military contract magazines" for just about any make of pistol out there. I have a Beretta 92F (M-9) and they have 15-rnd magazines for $15!!! That's less that 1/3 the cost of a Beretta magazine!!



Here's the link to the website: www.keepshooting.com
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jegner
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 12:06 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

I had no idea about the M14 magazines, or the .308 Galil magazines! I'll keep an eye out for them around here.

What is the required number of magazines per rifle/pistol. I have hear 6 but that is from the competition shooters who throw down their empty magazines during their run. On an AR or AK thats not too expensive, to do, but for these others, man, that many could add up quick.

Also, thoughts on factory vs. ProMag magazines? Thoughts? Experiences?

Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:25 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Well, when I was "in" the basic combat load was 7) 30-rnd. mags... six in the pouches and one in the rifle for a total of 210-rnds. That was using the ALICE system of a (then called) LBE. A few years after I was out they upgraded the "LCE" to more of a "vest" which allowed for a basic combat load of 9) 30-rnd mags for a total of 270-rnds. Currently USGI combat gear is using the MOLLE system, and I believe can allow for 330-rnds in the basic combat load! I could be off by a couple of magazines on the latter gear... I've not kept too close of an eye on that kind of stuff for years, and I'm playing "catch-up" ATM!!

Honestly, I've never been impressed with competiton "practical" shooters and those kinds of events... yeah, they can pump a lot of rounds into a target really fast, but in general they would suck in real combat because of the fearful, smelly environment, and REAL stress of getting killed or maimed... just my opinion.



To answer your questions specifically on the minimum "required" number of magazines is IMHO based on a "well rounded tactical kit" consisting of a military chambered rifle & pistol, a shotgun, and at least one knife (and knowing how to use it effectively).


Rifle (primarily used offensively, intermediate-long range/suppressive fire)-

.223
7-10) 30-rnd clips, 210-300 rnds. of .223 is not too heavy/bulky (for me anyway...LOL)

7.62x39
7-10) 30-rnd clips, 210-300 rnds. of 7.62x39 (300 rnds. can get heavy/bulky for some folks)

.308 (7.62x54 NATO) FYI-30.06 is basically the same weight/bulk as .308
6-11) 20-rnd. clips, 120-220 rnds of .308 IS heavy when you start packing that much. I was an M60 Machine-gunner for years and an ammo-can holds 200-rnds. I used to hump 2-4 cans in my rucksack and more than 2 cans can beat the snot out of you!


Pistol (primarily used defensively, close-in/confined spaces)-
3-5 clips) (15-18 rnds. of 9mm ea.)
3-5 clips) (7-10 rnds. .357-.45 @ 7-12 rnds. ea.)

No matter if you use 9mm or the larger bore rounds, alternate the rounds between JHP and FMJ.

Today's auto-loaders are extremely reliable and IMHO offer better tactical efficiency/advantages for the "average Joe" over a revolver because of ammo capacity, and especially when reloading.



Shotgun (preferably pump-action) (offensive/defensive, close quarters, room-clearing, building entry, and crowd control)-

12-gauge (2-3/4" or 3") 8-24 rounds (in speed-feed stocks and/or bandoliers)...minimum.

A good "overall" combination to cover a wide variety of situations consists of 00-buck and rifled slugs (or sabot rounds) alternated to engage "soft" targets (people and door knobs) and "hard" targets (cars and metal doors)... if you have the wrong round chambered for the situation, you just jack it out for the next one... hence the pump-action preference.



Fighting knife (defensive weapon... usually a last resort)

Minimum of a 4" blade (folding or fixed-blade) to fully hit vital internal organs with a hilt-deep stab, a blade over 6" is unwieldy and "hollywood"... forget about it! A double or single edged blade depends on preference, highly recommend a partially serrated blade to EASILY slash through leather-type body armor (like a leather biker-jacket Wink ) An oval-type "universal" handle is recommend so you can hold the knife blade in such a way as to stab "up" or "down" while in your fist... forget the "finger groove" handles unless it fits in the "up" or "down" position properly. I held/hold my fighting knife "blade down and edge out" in a boxer's stance. When making an attack like throwing a punch you make a slice on the throw of the "punch" going for their wrist, and a slab and/or slice to their neck/face on the "return", either way, they're going to bleed... a lot. Shocked

OK, enough of the depressing stuff...




About the Promag stuff:
It looks good, but I have never used Promag stuff, and if you're talking the synthetic-polymer type magazines (poly-mags), I would tend to avoid them unless they are used for casual "plinking" and not used for high rates of fire, ESPECIALLY in a semi-auto rifle... but then again, I'm set in my ways from having been out in the field for Uncle Sam... metal magazines are only a couple dollars more (usually) than poly-mags, and there's a reason USGI magazines are still made of metal. Wink

I know this doesn't specifically address Promag stuff, but IMHO poly-mags are poly-mags...


Here's a copy & paste of comments I have found:

Thermold (Canadian) magazines. Black plastic with no reinforcing. These work just as well as Orlites, but are a little more flimsy. They also use a lower melting-point plastic than the Orlite. (The Canadian soldiers jokingly refer to them as "Thermelts", because the feed lips melt if you get a M16 really hot (usually from firing blanks with a blank firing device.)


As for Orlite Magazines:


(Copied & pasted from a forum entry)

"I have a couple of 30 round Orlite magazines that I have received as gifts. They are both in used condition and have the same problem of having a crack that starts at the right angle formed by the vertical and horizontal edges of the cutout for the magazine follower's bolt stop tang on the left side of the body.
I have tried using a cyanoacrylate glue on the crack of one of the mags, but the crack opens up again after I load cartridges into the magazine (after waiting a day for the glue to harden of course).
Is there another type of glue to use, or can I get replacement magazine bodies, or should I just consign these to range or spare parts use?"




A video of an Orlite malfunction:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PvPENgpBkOU


Hope that helps!
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Last edited by Stomper on Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:11 pm; edited 1 time in total
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jegner
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 3:40 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Thanks Tony for your input. Very interesting. Sounds like I'm pretty short the number of rifle magazines, and in the pistol realm.

Looks like I need to stock up soon.

Jim
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:07 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hope that helped... now keep in mind that this is a "tactical kit" I have outlined, and your needs/wants may vary... and sorry if I got a bit morbid with the knife details, but unfortunately in this world its a needful thing... Sad




Oh yeah, what kind of pistol are you sportin'? BTW- I also have a SS Mini-14 and an Colt AR-15A2 HBAR (w/magazines GOLORE)... Dad has the Mini-14 at his house though... LOL!
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 4:27 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hey Tony!

Ah, well, I have a Beretta 92F that I got back in the late 1980's. LOL. Shot it so much, I had to replace the barrel. Talk about a tank of a gun. The locking lug was the only thing that ever wore out. Literally tens of thousands of rounds through that old hog leg. Oh, and I have a Glock 17. The classic 'plastic frame' gun. Not shot it nearly as much as the Beretta but I still like it a lot. Then there's the 1911. But that beast has just recently gone through an overhaul, [thanks Clint!] and I hope to get it back out at the range soon.

Long guns, I'm a fan of the WWII/Korean era m1 Garand, and M1 Carbine, but I do have a soft spot for the AKM and the AR15. In fact I did up a retro Colt SP1 that I recently went deer hunting with. LOL. Got all sorts of looks with that thing at the cabin. Last time I went hunting it was with the M1 Garand. LOL. I hope to soon finish a XM177 'Commando' retro clone, and maybe a dressed out M4 when my budget allows.

Shotguns, are something I take for granted, honestly. My grandfather was a State Trooper and he carried a Remington Model 11. I guess that or a Browning BPS works best for me, but a REM. 870 is a tough act to follow.

I could drone on. Thanks for your input regarding the 'tactical kit'. Lots of good info there, and sometimes you have to address that morbid stuff to get down to basics. I find that those crummy AKM bayonets come in pretty handy, are cheap, and even have a built in wire cutter. Centerfire has them 5 for $25.
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PostPosted: Sun Nov 23, 2008 11:28 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL... nothing like cheap Commie surplus!! I used to own a BEAUTIFUL pre-ban PolyTeck AMK-762 side folder (not the ugly, red bakelite version either) that I bought back in '89-'90, brand new in the box for $250... I sold it to my brother-in law a few years latter for $500... wish I hadn't sold it now, but at least my sister has the option of using it on him the next time he steps out on her... Mad

Patton referred to the M1 Garand as "the dealiest weapon ever made by man"... good stuff!

The M1911 was our assigned sidearm during our "gigs" in "Latin" America, although it was an USGI "rattle in the slide" piece of iron, it worked quite well if you kept it lubricated properly! The uber-tight variants out today are AWESOME!! If I were to go with a .45 ACP I would go with one that takes double stacked magazines for them... woo hoo!

I dearly love my "made in Italy" Beretta 92F, I picked it up in '88 while I was stationed in Germany, I dumped the stock plastic grips (more like panels) and added wrap-around Pacmars to it... I remember rolling up masking tape into little rolls and wrapping the grips over that to get the finger grooves you see... ahhh, the internatinal borders that thing has crossed in it's lifetime!! LOL

A few years later I added an integrated laser to it, here it is 20-yrs. later, safe and sound:


Also, another thing about your "tactical kit" and implementing it... try to think in terms of overlapping concentric rings around you... the outter ring is "long-range" 50-800 meters, this is a rifle application and most desireable, because you are "safer". The next ring inwards is 5-100 meters and is the pistol application, altough 50 meters is about it for accurate pistol shooting, you can still make a target duck their head. The next ring closer is 2-50 meters, and is shotgun territory... you can cover a LOT of area with 00-Buckshot! The closest ring (and most deadly to you) is 0-3 meters and unfortunately means hand-to-hand either with a knife, butt-stroking with your firearm or literally biting/tearing hunks of flesh from your opponent with your teeth. This should be avoided at all costs, because there are "no winners in a knife fight"... only the dead and the severly wounded!! Confused

Also, train yourself to shoot "double-tap" with the rifle and pistol (modified weaver stance for the pistol, and shuffle to the side as a moving target is harder to hit when you are under fire), because with the proliferation of body armor that thugs are using, double-taps (even repeatedly) to the head and/or legs will usually get you the desired results even if they are wearing Class II/III body armor under their shirts or jackets. When I was in Germany pulling security duty for the USAREUR CINC (a 4-star General) we ALWAYS trained for double-taps to the head on a target using pistols (we also used MP5 SMG's)... a dying body generally doesn't do a "reflexive" discharge of a firearm when the brain is gone, thus reducing the chances of getting killed or wounded by a "dead-man". Wink
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 7:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Sounds like your 92F and mine were made around the same time. Mine is one of those 'Made in Italy' too! LOL. Only thing I have ever done to mine is add some Meprolights night sights, but that was so long ago, now the tritium has died in them LOL. I should just take them off now.

Never have thought about adding a laser. Hmm. I suppose you like it. To be honest, never thought it would improve my shot placement that much. Does it? Tell me more! I can get an internal guide rod laser for the Glock, but have never really seriously thought about adding one due to the cost/benefit. LOL.

Yea, had you held onto that PolyTec they are a collectible now, maybe worth a grand since they can't be imported anymore.

The 'concentric ring' concept is a good one thanks for posting that.

Jim
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 8:20 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Yeah... tell me about it concerning that Poly-Tech AKM.... Crying or Very sad One thing it did that I HATED was it ALWAYS dented the brass halfway down the casing... making it useless to reload! That Galil is a SWEET shooter... imagine dumping 20 rounds of .308 (as fast as you can pull the trigger) into a 4-6" shot group while STANDING from 100 meters... with the recoil of an AR-15!!! That makes me feel better about the AMK... LOL!

Tritium sights... I never used them, as I was always weary of having radioactive materials (even low-level stuff like Tritium) too close to my body for any length of time... plus I read the warnings on the packing crates for Tritium M-16 sights in the arms room one day... FORGET THAT!! Call it "Cold War paranoia"... LOL!

What I did on my 92F was paint the front sight-blade bright, flat-white, and the inset sight-dot a day-glow orange, the the rear "half-moon" sight is the day-glow orange with smaller "half-moon" sight-dot painted the bright, flat-white. This makes a very nice front/rear sight constrast in low-light conditions... and it doesn't cause tumors from beiing radio active... LOL

On a pistol, the most important "focus point" is the front sight-blade. The laser on mine is zeroed to be dead-on across the living room. I find that it aids in very rapid target acquisition in low-light conditions, which is what its all about in your dark house at night (most likely time) confronting an intruder.

I saw those guide-rod lasers years ago, I never got one as I wasn't convinced of their durability or accuracy since they are so tiny, and inside the weapon with all the "atmosphere" that goes on in there. Perhaps they are much improved with technology advancements? I never grew dependant on laser sights, I just used them as a low-light level enhancement is all... Matter of fact I haven't fired that laser on my 92F for a couple years now, I better make sure the lithium battery is still good!! Shocked LOL
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PostPosted: Mon Nov 24, 2008 6:03 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Crying or Very sad Crying or Very sad that pic makes me miss my Beretta, I sold it prol 10 years ago, what was I thinking?!?!.....$300, what a deal they got.

I use Magpul polymer mags in my AR, but I havent fired enough rounds to really put them to the test. Guess I should invest in some metal mags eh?
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PostPosted: Wed Nov 26, 2008 2:38 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Magpul makes some really nice stuff. I wouldn't worry too much about them, but I've not been in combat with them either.

Interesting side note, the original Armalite AR10 intention for the magazines were to be disposable! Hence them being made from thin walled aluminum. A common complaint about used mags these days. LOL.

Yep, my great uncle always said: 'Never sell your land or your guns, you will regret selling them later on.'

Jim
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 1:24 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

LOL... after all this weapons talk, I have now embarked on building up a custom M4A3 (basically an updated CAR-15) carbine!! After many, many hours of google searching, I have sourced and paid for a brand new lower receiver with all the internals installed that is in my State... I have to drive down to Southern Oregon to pick it up as I have to fill out the transfer paper work since I don't have an FFL, but it's a nice excuse to pile the wife and kids into the Suburban and drive 4 hours South... good thing there's an in-car DVD player and infra-red headphones for the kids... LOL!

Amazingly you don't need a FFL to buy barrels or upper receivers online... go figure. Anyway I have reserved a picatinny flat top (no carry handle) upper-half complete with bolt/carrier group and M4 feed-ramps, a 16" M4 (1in7 twist) barrel, and black aluminum 4-rail pictatinny hand guards that will have a front vertical grip fixed to it (when I find one I like). I plan to remove the standard front sight post and install a low profile gas block that has picatinny rails on top so I can add front and rear flip-up/down iron sights, and a bayonet lug on the bottom.

I'm also going to remove the A2 birdcage flash-hider/brake and install a Phantom "aggressive" flash-hider/brake... basically its a bird cage that is deeply serrated (and pointy) on the muzzle rim... woo hoo, you can take sternum core samples with this baby! LOL I'm still looking around for telescoping buttstocks... there are some pretty nifty designs out there, but so far I'm liking the M4 6-position stock. Whatever I choose it will have a single point sling connector... oh yeah, it will have a picatinny mounted LED flashlight and a laser sight mounted on it as well... LOL
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 7:27 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That M4A3 sounds sweet! The AR15 type of modular design really is a clever way to build a weapon to meet your needs. Need a different caliber, get a different upper assembly! I've seen uppers from .22 and 9mm, to 5.56mm, 6.8 SPC, to .458 SOCOM, and .50 Beowulf and everything in between. All you need is a single lower!

One of these days, I want to do the same thing you are taking about. I got a Bushmaster lower a couple of years ago, and right now it has a A2 upper with the ultral light 'pencil' barrel, it came off a Colt 6920 'govt' carbine. I like it a lot, but want to do the flat top M4 option. Having that rail to mount optics on is something I'd like to do. There are some really cool scopes on the market, the Trijicon ACOG line looks like a great option.

I've shot a 6.8 SPC, set up like the M4, it was a gas piston conversion, but man, did I like it! It had the ACOG scope.

Tony, keep us updated on your project! I'd love to see a pic of it when you get it done.

Jim
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 05, 2008 8:41 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I'm going to pick up my AR15A2, Galil, and Mossberg 500 from my mom & dad's house this Sunday, they've been there since my last divorce 7-8 years ago... LOL I'll get some photos of those posted, and I will definitely post photos of the M4A3 as it progresses!

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention that my Galil has a fixed wooden stock w/integrated pistol grip... you know, to get around the pistol griped weapons import restrictions they imposed in the 90's for a while? It looks kinda cool... like something Charlton Heston would have used in one of the "Ape movies"... Laughing I'm getting the bug to find a real pistol grip and a side folder for it, but parts are DIFFICULT & EXPENSIVE to find for this particular beastie!! Confused

I was just looking at piston recoil AR-style uppers last night! Some LR300 (something or another like that), and an HK variant too... NICE! (but expensive) BTW, I'm blaming this latest M4A3 venture on YOU, Jim... you JUST HAD to start talking about this stuff after the election.... DIDN'T YOU?! Wink Wink Laughing Laughing Laughing
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