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Finally going to get this going!
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Darth Voorhees
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:56 pm    Post subject: Finally going to get this going! Reply with quote

Just a semi-repost from my intor thread so i can ask questions n such and it all not be in the intro thread Smile

Been trying to get a table together for the last 5yrs, but something always prevented it...sometimes money sometimes space. When i lived in Brooklyn in an apt, it really just wasnt going to happen. But since then ive moved to Long Island NY in the back half of my inlaws house and we have a huge yeard where i can build a 10X14 shop with the proper electrical lines, ventilation, a/c, heat and humidity control. My Father inlaw is an electrician so he will be getting the power into the shop.

But i actually have purchased the proto-form plans and will get started as soon as i have the cash available to me.

I currently have a gofundme up to help fund the shop and table builds because right now my only income is the prop stuff im currently doing (painting and some fiberglass armor/helmets etc) and i cant seem to make enough to get either the proper shop or the table built after all my bills and rent is paid. I absolutely HATE asking for money but it was the only way i could see me getting this done and being able to continue doing what i love for a living. If your interested in helping out, PM me and i'll gladly send you the link. I dont know if its allowed, or in poor taste to post that here.

Anywho, i figured id start asking questions now so once im ready to actually build the thing i have some sort of clue.

1 is a 30 gallon tank like this one a good choice if using a 10cfm pump on a 24X48 size table?
http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/pneumatics/air-compressors-tools/compressors-tools/ar8021-air-receivers-surge-tanks-30gal-175psi?infoParam.campaignId=T9F&gclid=CKvE97XjsM8CFQpZhgodY5oK6A

i was also looking into this pump, or maybe something similar:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/Mastercool-90070-2V-110-10-CFM-2-Stage-Rotary-Vane-Deep-Vacuum-Pump-New-/281554519215?hash=item418df504af:g:rM4AAOSw~uhUrDiT

Id be pulling mostly ABS. .080 i think is the most common for making costume armor thats not to flimsy.

Crashmann sent me this reply to which i am greatful Smile
crashmann wrote:
Hi Lou,

The pump looks very similar to the ones recommended by other folks in the past. The power requirements look good - 110 volts AC, so no need to setup a special 220 volt circuit Smile

I don't know about the tank. It's difficult to find any details using a Google search. I would think that since the tank is rated for 175psi, then it should be able to hold a vacuum. It looks to be made of steel, so I wouldn't expect it to collapse under vacuum. You'll want to confirm it has an epoxy inner lining as well.

McMaster-Carr used to have tanks that would hold both pressure and vacuum, but they were super expensive - $600 plus freight charges!

My old rusty water heater is still holding up Smile

Good luck with your venture!

Charlie

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Darth Voorhees
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 6:59 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks crashmann! Oh the 220V was for the oven not the pump...if needed. Im going to be using the proto-form heat plates/tiles he makes to simplify the build.

But back to the pumps...i found this one also:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/172290520711?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

What do you think of that one? I dont have the cash yet, so that particular one will likely slip through my fingers. Just curious if i find something like this or similar if its worth getting or if the one i posted before should suffice fine. Are you still using that same gast1065 pump?

i got feelers out for a water tank/"ol rusty" of my own lol, and i found a few on craigslist that are $100-150 for a 30 or 40 gallon tank so i have that option also. Just trying to save a little here n there where i can.

thanks again for the reply bro!
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crashmann
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PostPosted: Wed Sep 28, 2016 8:17 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

The Gast 1065 pump looks like a reasonable price considering it comes with a motor as well, but that paint color - blech!



That power cord looks a little sketchy as well. I would replace it with 12 gauge cable, and wire it up to a switch on the control panel of the vac table.



I hate gate valves. It appears to be a valve to relieve the vacuum. I'd replace it with a ball valve. I love ball valves!



The oil in the exhaust jar has me concerned. In all of the time that I've had my pump, the oil has never traveled and collected in the jar like in the picture above. I suspect the previous operators may have poured it in, not realizing that is not where it's supposed to go. Or, there's something really wrong with this pump and it sucks oil through the system - yikes!

I wouldn't feel bad about missing the auction on this vacuum pump.

I've had my Gast 1065 rebuilt twice so far over 10 years of operation. The vanes wear out and it won't pull a vacuum anymore. I tried taking the pump apart to fix it myself, but there's some parts that are press fit and require more than human strength to move.



Fortunately, there's a service place just north of me in Pennsylvania, and for a reasonable price with a two week turnaround, the pump was back in action again.

Create a saved search for "Gast 1065" to ensure you don't miss out on a nice pump. You've got plenty of time before your table is operational, so be patient and you'll find a good deal.

Double check the ratings, but I believe most water tanks can go up to 150psi. I wouldn't trust a fiberglass tank to hold a vacuum (big implosion like an empty beer can!), but if you can find some kind of metal tank, that would probably do the trick. I got mine off Freecycle!

Charlie
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Darth Voorhees
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011
Posts: 24
Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Sun Oct 02, 2016 12:04 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome thanks man! Yea i didnt think the oil was supposed to be in the jar either but im only mildly knowledgeable with the pumps thus far. Thanks for ll the help man, REALLY appreciate it. I'll set up the gast 1065 search on fleabay so i dont miss anything. I may get the first one i posted if it comes to im ready and still dont have a pump, then upgrade a little later on.

Got my mother in law on the look out for a water heater tank. She works for a construction company and they rip them out on a semi-regular basis, so hoping i can get one through them.
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spektr
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 11, 2016 11:14 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Forget the water tank and get a propane tank, used a few for years....
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kayaker43
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 16, 2017 2:12 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Hot water do work,... mostly. I do hear of the odd one that does collapse. could be thinning from rust inside. Could be that new stuff is made thinner than old stuff? either way an implosion is more scary than dangerous. Tall narrow tanks are more prone to collapse than short stubby ones.

Cheap air tanks can do it too, they are getting thinner each year as well. Its a crapshoot really but failures are rare. Its all about the metal thickness and I think propane tanks are generally thick enough to be reliable?

Gast makes dry vane pumps and they usually pull 25-26 inches of mercury. They often add a drip lubricator to keep the vanes sealed better and those usually pull 27-28 inches. The oil just passes through and collects in the exhaust trap. I am not sure if the vane material is different between dry and wet?? Its a total loss system, just refill the oiler and empty the jar occasionally. Mineral oil is the lube of choice.
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Darth Voorhees
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:44 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Ok...im back...again...one thing after another kept delaying this..we JUST got the new shop up. Dont have electricity/insualtion/ inner wallas in ityet, but thats coming very soon. So the gofund me didnt help so i just had to wait it out until i was able to fund this myself. Took another year...but i finally was able to buy stuff to start the table build.

I am still building the 2X4 table...
I have ordered the GAST 7Z782 pump. 21 cfm 27" max 115/230V that Doug recommended in the Proto-form plans, and also ordered the fast heat tiles he makes to ease with the build.

I havent been able to find a used water heater that wasnt leaking. I have found 2 20 gallon tanks for about $300 with free shipping. So far that is the best i could find and actually afford after spending the little extra on the good pump. But im waiting for the seller to get back to me to see if they have some sort of PSI rating. They are def steel but i want to make sure they will hold up. they are 12" diameter and 44" long. hoping thats not too "tall" They are from summit racing oddly lol. here is the e-bay link:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/Firestone-9277-Air-Tank-20-Gallons-Steel-Black-12in-Diameter-44in-Length-Each/332148736397?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649#rwid

I also found this propane tank.."200lb" which is 45.5 gallon i believe. this may be better just because its one tank and fatter, so its not tall and thin like the ones from Summit.
https://www.northerntool.com/shop/tools/product_200432517_200432517?cm_mmc=Google-pla&utm_source=Google_PLA&utm_medium=Heaters,%20Stoves%20%2B%20Fireplaces%20%3E%20Heater,%20Stove%20%2B%20Fireplace%20Accessories&utm_campaign=Northern%20Tool%20and%20Equipment&utm_content=172871&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIkrvN3pXp1wIVx4izCh0jagGvEAQYASABEgJsAPD_BwE

What do you guys think of these tanks?

I had e-mailed Doug just now on this, but i guess i could ask here as well... the tanks have 1/2" inputs/inlets..not sure what you call them lol... Doug had recommended 1" and having 1" ones welded on. I was wondering if i could drill out the 1/2" ones, maybe to 3/4" or a little smaller, and then NPT tap them for 1" ...or is that not gonna work?

Anyways, thanks again for any assistance..im hopin this time i'll actually get the ball rolling lol...its been a long hard road to get this far, but i think im finally there lol.
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kayaker43
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:28 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Darth, I'll respond here instead of e-mail so others can see it.

Tanks are a crapshoot,.. You really can't predict from the specs or PSI rating how they will hold up with vacuum. Generally thicker steel is better but you can get a high psi rating with thinner high strength steel. They rarely tell you what gauge steel is used.

Fitting sizes are random as well. Im sure Summit has multiple vendors like all mail order places. Its common for the part you receive to be equal but completely different than the one pictured in the catalog. I used to try specifying a tank but then they swap vendors and the steel gauge changes and fittings are in a different place. The trend now is towards thinner high strength steel to save cost. Sometimes a cheaper import tank uses thicker steel. The tensile strength is irrelevant to us but the thickness helps.

The guidelines remain the same in regards to resisting collapse,.. thicker metal is better and shorter is better than long. ASME tank ratings don't apply to vacuum but they're presence may indicate a better quality tank.

The inexpensive tire filling tanks have always been the most bang for the buck. I have used many of them from Home depot and Lowes. Every time I buy them, the fittings sizes and locations are different so I change them. Using multiple tanks is fine if connected with large enough hoses or a good manifold system. Most times there is at last one fitting that is extra thick and can be drilled larger but for me its easy enough to weld on a fitting. You can buy pre-made tank "bungs" from Mcmaster carr or clean off the plating from a pipe coupler and weld it. You can also get large size steel barbed fittings if using flexible hose. These are often used for sprinkler systems or spa plumbing.

Having said all that, collapsing tanks are not a big problem. In the past 20 years I have only heard of two instances myself. One was a rusted water heater tank and the other a longish waiter storage tank. I have never heard of any propane tank or air storage tank collapsing. Implosion is also not much of a safety concern as opposed to exploding a tank.

Water heater tanks are evolving, when I revise the plans I think I'll steer people away from them because of rust issues and the trend toward thinner metals and new liner materials being used now.
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kayaker43
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

I just viewed the link to the air tank from Summit racing. the very first review says the picture is misleading and the dimensions are different than advertised. that confirms my comment above that they use multiple vendors.

Just found these tanks,.. only 10 gallons but they have very large fittings and a free dump valve.

https://www.amazon.com/Giantex-Gallon-Blaster-Seating-Inflator/dp/B017BJFPJS/ref=sr_1_3?s=automotive&ie=UTF8&qid=1512146645&sr=1-3&keywords=tire+filling+tank
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Doug Walsh
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Darth Voorhees
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Joined: 28 Jan 2011
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Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:37 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

Awesome thanks Doug!

I think that guy said that "the dimensions dont look like the picture"...but if that person read the description, he'd have known how big it was as the dimensions are listed. The tank pictured is shorter..assuming it was a 12" diameter that tank is likely around 24" inches long, the description says its 44" long and 12" diameter, so i think its just case of someone just "looking at the picture" and not understanding proportion/dimentions lol

i like the propane tank cuz its one larger tank and is closer to the gallon size you recommend in the plans for a 2X4 perfomance table at 45.5 gal. These summit ones are 20gal each so it would be 40 gallons. Will it make that much difference in the pulls to have 5-10 more gallons on the tank? the 2 tanks are def less expensive than the 1 large one..and the smaller ones ship faster... not that im gonna need them right away, but i would like to have this built by the end of the year. I could also grab a 5 or 10 gallon one of the one you linked me too to make it 45 or 50, if it makes any significant difference. thanks again for all your help Doug!
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Last edited by Darth Voorhees on Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:51 am; edited 1 time in total
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kayaker43
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PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:49 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

The propane tank is a safe bet but you should remove the valve assembly with all its internal hardware.

The tank size depends somewhat on platen size but more on the shape and volume of your molds, the pump used and final vacuum level required after forming.

That pump/tank combo should cover most uses and is probably more than you need. Call with more info on your intended use if you need specifics.
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Doug Walsh
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Hobby-Vac and Proto-Form machine plans

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Darth Voorhees
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Location: Oceanside Long Island NY

PostPosted: Fri Dec 01, 2017 11:54 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

thanks Doug! Sounds perfect...more than i need is better than not enough! lol If i need more specifics, i'll give ya a call, but i think once i have this stuff ordered i'll be good for a little bit. likely wont start the table build until Mid December or so.
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Darth Voorhees
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PostPosted: Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:53 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

One more quick question... we are wiring the shed/shop soon so my electrician will need to know what i need.

Aside from a few direct lines for other things in the shop, Im thinking i need 1 220 line for the heating unit and then just a standard direct line for the pump? Does this sound right? Just wanna make sure im not missing something
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kayaker43
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PostPosted: Mon Dec 04, 2017 9:01 am    Post subject: Reply with quote

That should do it,.. 50 amp min will run it but larger is good in case you need it later for something and to minimize voltage drop under load.
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Doug Walsh
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Darth Voorhees
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PostPosted: Tue Dec 05, 2017 12:39 pm    Post subject: Reply with quote

Perfect..thanks Doug! Im gonna give my electrician (which is my father in law lol) the electrical section for the plans, cuz most of that is like an alien language to me lol Hoping to have electricity in the shop by the end of the month. Then we can do the lights and plug in a heater and then we can build the table in the shop Smile
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